Tuesday, February 24, 2015

Question from a Reader: Breeding a Morgan Mare

"I reached out to you a while back about crossing my Morgan mare with a warm blood. I was wondering what your experience has been with this and what I should look for in a stallion. I am looking for something with better movement and a bit more size than what my girl has. I primarily ride dressage. I got my mare from a rescue, she is 6 with the most wonderful personality, unfortunately she has some trouble with movement and most likely will just be my trail buddy as she loves it. As someone who will not be able to ever afford to be able to purchase something a bit nicer for dressage I have considered breeding her. I would appreciate any recommendations as I am flying blind here."

We love our Morgans, and over the years we've had a number of them.  In the early 1990s I was even leaning toward our primary focus being a Warmblood Morgan cross.  As fate would have it, our breeding program took off, and, although we've done a few Morgan crosses, the success of our Dutch horses has taken precedence over any other breeding.  That being said, I can tell you what I've learned and observed over the years of looking at this cross.

Although the Morgans bring a soundness, hardiness, trainability, and versatility to the table, they also come with a few drawbacks for dressage--all tied into the top line of the horse.  One, they're bred to have a lot of hock and knee action, but that action is primarily up and down, not up and out.  Two, and connected to number one, they generally have weaker loin connections than warmbloods, so they don't transfer weight onto the hind quarters as easily and naturally as most warmbloods. And, three, and also tied into one and two, Morgans don't usually have the best canters.  Of course, there are exceptions to theses traits; I've seen a few Morgans over the years that are true sport horses in a smaller package, but the majority of the Morgans bred for the contemporary show ring don't have the top line of a sport horse. So, in breeding a Morgan for dressage, if you're lucky enough to start with a mare that has desirable sport horse traits, then you'll have a chance of producing a decent baby.  If not, then your chances of breeding a new sport horse for yourself are really slim.  If you're going to try it, you want to make sure you pick a stallion who consistently produces a good canter and true lift in the withers.  Our most successful dressage baby out of the Morgan cross was from the stallion Polansky on Sunbolt Linda Gail, who was a blend of old school park horse and Government breeding.

What I'm going to say next is going to sound both like an act of shameless self promotion and a little harsh.  Here's the harsh part:  If you already know this mare herself doesn't have the movement to be more than a trail horse, than you're probably making a mistake trying to breed her in an attempt to produce a future dressage horse for yourself.  If you calculate the cost of the stud fee, semen shipping costs, collection fees, vet fees, maintaing the mare through the pregnancy and lactation, etc, etc, it's going to be pretty easy to spend $5,000 or more.  And, after you've spent that, you're probably not going to have the horse you wanted.  Here's the shameless self-promotion part:  Our business plan is to sell our babies on terms that people can afford.  You can buy a baby, that's already on the ground and observable, out of arguably the best collection of KWPN dressage mares in North America on monthly payments you can afford. The total is going to cost you more than it would cost you to produce your own baby out of your Morgan mare, but, in the end, you're going to end up with a horse that is bred to have the ability and conformation to do the job you want.

If you really love your mare and can be happy if she produces something just like her, then breed her.  We have certainly made some breeding decisions based on our emotional attachment to our mares.  Just make sure to pick a stallion who reliably produces uphill movement with a great canter. But, if you really want a future dressage partner, talk to me or another dressage breeder about the possibilities of payments and working with you to get a baby that's really going to allow you to pursue your dreams.

Saturday, February 21, 2015

Breedings for 2016 Foals

I know!  I just wrote that I wasn't going to post our breeding picks this year.  Well, as it turns out, I've had two more inquiries on 2016 babies, so that's three of next year's foals that are potentially already spoken for, in addition to three from this year already spoken for.  If people are planning that far in advance, and we're in the business of selling babies, then it makes sense that I talk about our breeding picks.  As always, we happily accept terms on our foal sales, so if there's a potential cross you're interested in from this year's crop or next, give me a shout. Unless it's a "designer baby", I do reserve the right to keep a foal that I just can't part with--that's why I don't take deposits. You can see all of our mares on our mares' page:  http://shootingstarfarm.com/mares.html

2015 Crosses on the Way:

UB-40 x Vincent x El Corona
Governor x Samber x Lector (first option taken)
UB-40 x Freestyle x Jazz
Governor x Contango x Elcaro
UB-40 x Sir Sinclair x Jazz (first option taken)
Fairytale x Donatelli x Jazz (first option taken)
Eye Catcher x Bon Bravour x Santano (not for sale)

2016 Plans:

UB-40 x Elcaro x Belisar
Alexandro P x Vincent x El Corona
Governor x Samber x Lector
Fairytale x Jazz x Roemer
******** x Freestyle x Jazz (first option potentially taken/"Designer" baby)
Apache x Contango x Elcaro
UB-40 x Sir Sinclair x Jazz
Fairytale x Donatelli x Jazz (first option taken)
Chagall x UB-40 x Pass the Glass xx (first option taken)
Grey Flanell x Bon Bravour x Santano
"Tolman Experiment" x Totilas x Jazz
Chagall x Charmeur x Santano

In the frozen semen situations, I only try once or twice, depending on how late in the year it is, then I switch to fresh cooled.  UB-40 and Gaspard De La Nuit DG are my choices for fresh cooled stallions this year.


Question from a Reader: Thinking in Generations

One of the most gratifying aspects of writing this journal over the years is the number of people I've met and friendships I've made through conversations that have been generated by what I've written. I am always willing to talk horses and to share my experiences and base of knowledge. The better educated all of us are in North America, the stronger our breeding programs will become and the more respect we'll garner from the international horse-breeding and horse-buying communities. If I can be a part of generating conversations and sharing knowledge, I want to be.  So, always feel free to send me a question or give me a shout to have a conversation. 

The following is part of an email I received recently--I'm using it with permission:

"I was reading your short text on your blog (in regards to the Stallion Show)... thanks for that. I would have a question for you if you don't mind pushing your thoughts a bit more for me... The "thinking in generations".

I remember us having a conversation about the KWPN and the generations thing in 2010. I am still trying to wrap my head around the concept and apply it to my program and general breeding thinking. In general I think I'm much more performance oriented and that you are probably perfectly in the middle. I agreed with your vision and you thought the KWPN was doing it also in 2010.  But do you think they are doing it now? In 2010 they pushed the power and temperament from Van Norel's blood but you don't see that very much now from what I can find. 

It is especially important for me as I am trying to build something for the future around *********. I want to produce 2 or 3 mares out of her that will be the mothers of all or most of my future foals. And I question myself. Will the best choice to produce a very good broodmare is the same as the one to produce a nice marketable foal?...

Anyway it's probably a big question... but as always your thoughts would be welcome."


This are a big questions, but important ones.  Let me break them down into pieces and try to answer fully.

Thinking in Generations:

There are a couple of ways to generalize this concept so that it's a little easier to grasp.  First consideration, think about an extended pedigree--say, one you might see on horsetelex.com.  We all look at a pedigree and ooh and aah over the names we see if we like them, and tilt our heads and make some negative utterance if there's a name or two we don't.  Sometimes, we'll even completely dismiss a horse just because the pedigree isn't "good enough".  Making breeding decisions is just creating the future extended pedigree. Which directly ties to our second consideration, if I'm creating a line of mares in my breeding program that I hope my grandchildren will be using to breed their dressage horses, what base do I want to give them?  Of course, then you have to start assessing a number of things.  First and foremost, is my mareline good enough?  All of the planning and money and time we invest in breeding horses is absolutely pointless if we're not working with the best mareline we can afford/find.  This mareline doesn't have to be the highest ranked in a particular studbook, or, even, famous for producing top horses at breed shows--it has to produce the qualities that you find most important in a horse. For our program, I want a balanced, athletic horse, with a strong ability to sit, that's a little hot, but with a good brain and physical appeal.  Secondly, breeding in generations requires that you understand which stallions blend best with your mareline and which stallions belong in the bottom of the line vs. the top.  For instance, from my perspective, Jazz works on top or on the bottom; Ferro and Ulft are better on the bottom; Krack C or Sandro Hit have to be WAY back in a pedigree; and, I want a good dose of Thoroughbred or Trakehner blood up close.  By making sure you have the right stallions in the right places in the pedigrees of the horses you produce, you increase your odds of producing a horse that will contribute to the next generation of your program.  Also, while on this area of the topic, it's important to consider the motherline of the stallions you're using.  I always want to make sure that the damlines of the stallions we use have produced really well--I think this makes a huge difference in the fillies you decide to keep for your program. Thirdly, you have to be really aware of what's going on in the general KWPN breeding and sport population, and how your program can both contribute and take advantage of the trends.  Right now, the KWPN is so heavy on Jazz blood in its breeding program that it's really important for breeders to be cultivating non-Jazz lines that cross well with Jazz lines.  The good news about this is that if your program is also Jazz heavy, the KWPN is doing a lot of work for you trying to find outcrosses--and, there are so many people trying different outcrosses, it doesn't take too much research to see what's working and what's not working.  

Current Direction of the KWPN:

One of the primary reasons I stay with KWPN horses is that they are constantly evaluating their population of horses and adjusting their selection criteria to produce better horses.  A few years ago, we needed more substance and more power in our dressage breeding.  The Van Norel horses were a great answer to that, and it was a good move on the part of the KWPN to approve more of them.  As it happened, these horses didn't have as positive of an effect on the population as was predicted.  Part of it could be that the wrong mares were taken to these stallions; part of it could be that the Van Norel's didn't put the money into the best trainers, so their stallions didn't achieve the successes in the young horse classes and stallion competitions necessary to attract breeders.  Also, at the same time the KWPN was approving more of the Van Norel horses, Totilas and Valegro hit the big time, so we saw the influx of the Negro x Lord Leatherdale niche and the expanding influence of Gribaldi.  And, of course, there is the Donnerhall effect.  Interestingly enough, the Van Norel horse that keeps showing up successfully in pedigrees is not one of their younger stallions, but one of their much older stallions, Olympic Vincent, the sire of Cabochon.  As I just mentioned above, at this point in time, the KWPN has to be seeking out non-Jazz stallions.  Fortunately, he crosses well with a huge number of other lines. Personally, I don't think anyone is doing just the right cross for Jazz generationally speaking...but I'm going to work on that! More interesting is how the KWPN is going to react to having a growing number of successful Grand Prix dressage horses from the Harness Horse cross with and on Dressage lines.  I wonder if these will be seen as outliers, or if we're going to see more young stallions selected with Harness blood in their pedigrees.  

Breeding for Your Breeding Program vs. Breeding a Marketable Foal:

The ideal situation here is to educate enough of the buying population about what makes a good sport horse for the long haul, then your question is moot; the best horse for your breeding program would be the most marketable foal. Unfortunately, that's no the way of the world here or in Europe.  Black babies, with flashy movement and a pretty face, sired by a "name of the moment" are the typically the quick and more expensive sellers.  Personally, I can't go there.  Other than the times when one of our mares won't conceive to the stallion of my choice, I always breed for a horse that could potentially add to our program.  In my mind, what could be more important to a buyer than the fact that I would be perfectly happy to keep the horse they want to buy? Because, in actuality, the horses I keep for my breeding program should all have the attributes for which I'm selecting:  balance, athleticism, sit, brain, and physical attractiveness.  They can't produce what's not inherent in the genetics.  So, my advice here is always the same--breed for yourself and build your own market.

I hope that answered most of your question(s).  Again, especially those of you who send me emails or call to ask why I'm not writing in my journal, send me a question or discussion prompt--it's a guarantee of a journal entry!




Friday, February 13, 2015

KWPN Stallion Vivaldi

I wrote the following paragraph a few months ago, but never finished the post:

"If you've followed my journal for years, you probably know that I've never been that big of a Vivaldi fan.  However, after seeing the success of his sons under saddle and the type and movement of his grandchildren, I have to give credit where credit is due.  He's turned out to be a much better producer than I thought he was going to be after seeing his first couple crops of sons at the Stallion Show.
That being said, there are still plenty of Vivaldi offspring that crank up their necks, hollow out their backs, and throw their front legs around with almost no connection between the back of the horse and the front; however, there are also some super sons under saddle and some top daughters at keurings."

Having just returned from the Stallion Show and having seen multiple Vivaldi sons and grandsons again, I thought I'd continue my post.

There are some really good Vivaldis, but there are just as many, if not more, weak Vivaldis.  He is not a stallion for every mare, not that any stallion is, but he brings some significant weaknesses to the table.  I continue to see a general lack of power, strength, and balance in a number of his offspring.  They are all beautiful, with really expressive, easy movement, but even on the best of them, there is a slight disconnect in the loin and a lack of overall power from hind end to front.  When I look at some stallions' offspring, I can imagine the future Grand Prix horse. It's hard to describe exactly, but it has to do with the strength and balance, the overall ability of the horse to carry itself and adjust between shortening and lengthening easily and naturally.  If Vivaldi himself had competed at Grand Prix and demonstrated the kind of strength and connection it takes for attaining and maintaining an upper level career, I'd be willing to ignore the weakness in the top line of his offspring, but he hasn't.

Of course, there are going to be Vivaldi offspring at Grand Prix.  He's bred a lot of mares, and a lot of talented riders have purchased Vivaldi children--by the law of averages alone, some of them are going to be upper level horses.  My humble opinion is that we're going to see many more of them successful at lower levels and in young horse classes than we are successful at Grand Prix, however.

All of this being said, I think there's still a place for him in the pedigree.  He brings a beautiful type and expressive movement.  If you're lucky enough to cross him on a mare who consistently produces a great loin connection, then it could work out for you.  My guess is that even then, the pattern is going to follow the Punnett square, with 25% of the offspring being exceptional, 50% of the offspring being OK, and 25% of the offspring being terrible.

There's a Totilas thread on the Chronicle Dressage Forums right now labeling him as a "non-stamper"--that he doesn't consistently reproduce himself, so he's not worth the stud fee.  In Totilas's case, he consistently produces balance, strength, a good walk, a great canter, and a "normal" trot.  Type wise, he's all over the place.  Vivaldi is just the opposite:  He produces a really consistent type and a flashy trot, but you don't know what you're going to get for balance and strength.  For my money in breeding dressage horses, in the long run, the balance and strength are much more important than the pretty face and flashy trot.  Of course, the pretty face and flashy trot will sell much more quickly to an uneducated buyer, so I recognize the attraction for breeders.  Nonetheless, as someone who's constantly trying to breed horses that are one generation better suited for their future jobs as upper level dressage horses, a horse like Totilas is a much better bet.

Again, I think Vivaldi can have a place in a pedigree; as a matter of fact, I'm super excited to have a Vivaldi grandson coming from our Bon Bravour mare this April.  But, I only bred to a Vivaldi son, Eye Catcher, after I saw him in person AND saw his offspring inspection in person.  He has, and is producing, the kind of balance and adjustability I want, combined with the incredible expression in his gaits from Vivaldi.

So, I guess I'm a cautious Vivaldi fan now.  He's kind of like frosting: the right combination of ingredients really top off the cake--the wrong combination of ingredients create a sicky sweet mess you have to scrape off to get to the good stuff.


Wednesday, February 11, 2015

Stallion Show 2015

Don't get too excited!  I'm not doing my usual 10 or 15 page Stallion Show Report this year, but I want to at least give some overall thoughts and comments.  If you have specific questions about crosses or horses that we would have seen, then I'm happy to answer them.  Either post a comment below or drop me an email.

Let me start by saying this was one of my favorite Stallion Show's because it was a family affair. Michaela and Keagan went with me.  I can't tell you how special it is to me to share the second greatest passion of my life with the first greatest passion.  Next year promises to be better yet, because I think Carol's going, too!  So, both kids are in on the stallion picks for our program this year, and I've given them each the go ahead to pick one stallion that they really want to see used in our program, and I'll buy either a breeding or a dose or two of frozen. Keagan's already made his pick.  I think Michaela is vacillating between two, but both are ones I want to use anyways, so we're all good! And, no, I'm not going to tell you which stallions!  You'll have to wait until we have mares pregnant and 2016 foals safely on the way.  It's my new motto:  Keep my breeding picks to myself until later in the season. I wouldn't worry too much, though--we all know I'll never be able to do that. My next post will probably divulge all my plans...

As usual, I'm not really qualified to give much of an opinion on the jumpers.  Because of my school schedule, we missed the first day; because of buying cheaper flights since three of us were traveling, we didn't arrive on Thursday until midday.  Although, from what I understand, the first day of jumpers was pretty much a bust, and the second day not much better until the last few groups of stallions, we saw most of the boys selected for the Championship round go through both the second and third viewings.  The Arezzo VDL's were my favorites. He is a top performing and producing sire.

My overall thoughts about the dressage horses is that the average quality of the stallions was pretty solid.  There were a number of good horses.  The Apaches were the best and most consistent group. The Johnson x Rousseau deserved to be Champion--he is a fantastic horse.  The Charmeurs were hit or miss, with the Vervoorn product, His Royal Badness (Charmeur x Havidoff x TCN Partout), being a huge hit.  It's amazing to me that 25-year-old Jazz is still producing such top horses.  Two of his sons presented are quite special.  And, of course, in the Championship Round, every horse had Jazz in the pedigree.  The Apache x Ferro has him the furthest back, in the fifth generation.  The Vivaldi x Donnerhall has him in the fourth generation.  The Chagall, Wynton, Johnson, Westpoint, and the DeNiro sons all have him in the third generation.  Then, of course, there is the Jazz x Flemmingh. As much as I am a Jazz devotee, can you say, "Scot's happy to have six mares with no Jazz in the pedigree?"  The KWPN is going to need some stallion sons out of my mares!

North American breeders should be excited that VDL has a top new dressage prospect.  The DeNiro x Jazz x Ulft is a super horse.  I'll be excited to have his frozen available to us.

North American breeders may also get a chance to breed to a Negro son.  Willy Arts's Negro x Welt Hit II x Urban was selected.

Rumor is that the super fancy Alexandro P x Upperville x Zep has sold overseas for a huge amount of money.  If North America is what is meant by "overseas", it could be really interesting for us.  Henke is an outrageous stallion.  His canter could be a little stronger, but his trot and his overall use of his body are outstanding.

So, that's my Stallion Show Report for 2015. It was a good time.